Curse

talisk3 · Mar 01, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

I'm wondering if Tormenter's Insignia is good for a PvE curses necro.

talldervish · Mar 01, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

no no no this is bad well at least in factions vs aflicted cause they have ray o jesus (Ray of judgement) which deals holy damg but other wise its alright i guess........i mean i wouldnt run it

talisk3 · Mar 01, 2009, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Is it better than survivor

Kerwyn Nasilan · Mar 01, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

no
12 charactars

Carinae · Mar 01, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Personally, I use Tormentors on my self and heroes for some builds. The extra 10 armor is not a bad idea, and Survivors works against builds with anything more than occasional sacrifices.

Obviously you don't run it in areas with significant holy damage, which means its safe in most PvE areas.

Xenomortis · Mar 01, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

For a curses necro, Survivors is better.
For a builds with hefty sacrifices - eg: [Order of Undeath] or lots of [Blood of the Master] spam, then tormentors is certainly worth looking into. For those though, MM's insignia might be better.
I generally run Survivors and would only consider tormentors when I don't want high health.

TheodenKing · Mar 01, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Your question brings up a very good point about PvE: In general, high armor is more important than high health. In the case of your curse necro, having better armor than the chump standing next to you can mean the difference between you getting your skill chain off and you becoming a face-down spectator.

infusco · Mar 06, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

For PVE, honestly, I've always been a big fan of Tormentor's on my Necro. It's a virtually unconditional +10 armor boost with the only caveat that you are *slightly* more vulnerable to holy damage.

Honestly, unless you can afford to carry or store some three or four sets of armor, Tormentors and Radiant are, IMO, the two best insignias for necros. DO NOT get Survivors on a necro over Tormentors! Whatever the build you use, you will very frequently be using spells that sacrifice a percentage of your maximum health, and increasing your HP will just make it that much harder to heal you.

Xenomortis · Mar 07, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by infusco

Tormentors and Radiant are, IMO, the two best insignias for necros. DO NOT get Survivors on a necro over Tormentors! Whatever the build you use, you will very frequently be using spells that sacrifice a percentage of your maximum health, and increasing your HP will just make it that much harder to heal you.

There should be virtually no need for Radiant insignia. 40+ energy is fine and is easily achieved without Radiants.

I can think of a few builds (good builds too) that require little to no sacrifice - and it's almost always Enfeebling Blood that causes the sac. Really, MMs and people speccing into Blood Magic (which is generally crap) might want to consider Tormentor's over Survivor's, but otherwise you'll find the higher health more useful.

It's down to personal preference really, but more health means you're less likely to succumb to a spike.

D A R K S O I F O N · Mar 10, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

What is a good build for a necro with heroes to farm a tormentor's weapon. I'm trying to get a few weapon sets for my necro and havn't got a build. I heard wiki's builds arn't that good for vortex farming but does anyone know?

infusco · Mar 11, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

There should be virtually no need for Radiant insignia. 40+ energy is fine and is easily achieved without Radiants.

I can think of a few builds (good builds too) that require little to no sacrifice - and it's almost always Enfeebling Blood that causes the sac. Really, MMs and people speccing into Blood Magic (which is generally crap) might want to consider Tormentor's over Survivor's, but otherwise you'll find the higher health more useful.

It's down to personal preference really, but more health means you're less likely to succumb to a spike.

Xeno, don't forget that any Necro worth his salt will hit FoW with at least Blood Ritual on him. In fact, it's already assumed they do.

As for spike damage, the added armor compensates for the slightly lower health except when it comes to armor ignoring damage and degen. And let's be honest ... if a team of air spikers wants you dead, you're dead. A little extra armor or health won't prevent that.

And Radiant armor is *extremely* useful for an MM player. Given how much their energy levels will surge up and down with minion raising and destruction, the extra 7 or 8 energy is pretty significant. Remember that Bone Fiends are damned costly. I will agree it's not so important for reasons other than MMing.

And please ... Blood Magic is NOT crap. It's designed for mostly support and party energy management. Just because most Necro players (well, most players, period) can't get a hard-on unless they're directly causing uberz-l33t dmg does not mean it's a bad attribute. There are situations and team builds that require it.

I'd have to say, for when you only have a single suit of armor as opposed to a whole set of them, that Tormentors remains the safest *general* usage rune for Necros.

Xenomortis · Mar 11, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

If you're hit for armour ignoring damage or degen, you'll want survivors, because your armor boost from other insignias will not reduce the damage you take.

Ok, I was a little unfair on Blood Magic, but it isn't a good choice for general use. In specific situations where the orders or very specific party support skills are needed, it's a nice thing to have, but for general PvE, it's not a good choice. Blood Ritual is useful, but not amazing - at 16 Blood magic it'll give the target 14 energy over 14 seconds. Unless you intend to be spamming it a lot, then the extra health loss from Survivors probably won't hurt you.

In regard to MMs, I suppose yes, Radiant runes may be useful. Soul Reaping usually more than covers it though. Bone Fiends are very costly though, but I don't think are worth it due to their tendancy to stand inside AoE nukes.

The Josip · Jan 17, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If you're hit for armour ignoring damage or degen, you'll want survivors, because your armor boost from other insignias will not reduce the damage you take.

Where does "armor-ignoring damage spike" happen in PvE?

In 95%+ spikes, tormentor will beat survivor insignia. In cca 1-2% cases (if even that many), survivor will be better. For general use, Tormentor seems much better. Cca 12 holy damage vulnerability in HM PvE is nothing to calculate on, because holy damage dealt by monsters is very rare and even when it happens it rarely happens within the time span of a battle. I'm sure someone will think of an area that requires more careful approach, but that's like saying ER is a bad healer because ER might get stripped. Yea, it could get stripped, but *overall* it still rules.

Quote:

except Survivors will help you survive against all types of damage, whereas extra armour won't.

That's a debate alone the line of what's better: a single cast of Orison of Healing, or perpetual Shield of Absorption. There are situations when Orison will be better, but mostly not.

ps: This is my current opinion but I tend to change it. I used survivor runes too, massively. I did some reading about how armor works, then I checked what is my major problem in PvE that causes team wipe or death, and then I adapted to that.

Trelliz · Jan 20, 2010, 02:36 PM // 14:36

I've been using undertaker's insignia on head, gloves and boots with either radiant or the health one for ages, that extra armour boost as you take damage has saved me a number of times....i think, anyway.

Hugh Manatee · Jan 23, 2010, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Unless your job is to sit there and spam bip(which works best with like 1 HP anyway), what's the real harm of extra HP or survivors(I know armor>HP usually, just saying, unless you push the number way down so you're saccing low double digits whats the difference between 500ish with armor VS some sources and 600ish protection from armor ignoring and degen)? I know you sac less with lower total health, but you also have less health to begin with... Just cause your bar's full doesn't mean the number's higher...

Swahnee · Jan 24, 2010, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Well, there are plenty of threads about armor vs. hp where you can find arguments of all kinds on both sides. Personally, i run tormentors on my necro char and on all my heroes, except from the mm, who runs mm insignias. And this is because i think that +10 armor is better than +40 health in almost all situations in PvE for technical reasons i've already posted in other threads, but anyone is free to think, and play, differently.

The radiant suggestion is interesting though. Due to soul reaping, necros have a lot of energy "regeneration", so if you have low energy, you end up wasting a good part of the energy obtained from deaths, so it's certainly better to have an higher maximum energy.

But the question is: do i really need this big energy container? If you run a classic AP/MoP build, i assure you that 40 energy points are enough. If you want to run more expensive skills, maybe you would need more energy, but isn't an high energy set (wand/focus +15/+15) better in these cases? Using radiant will prevent you to gain the benefits of armor (or health) bonus, and this can be a problem in hm or high-end areas.

_Nihilist_ · Jan 27, 2010, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by talldervish

no no no this is bad well at least in factions vs aflicted cause they have ray o jesus (Ray of judgement) which deals holy damg but other wise its alright i guess........i mean i wouldnt run it

Does Ray of Judgment follow you around if you move? No. If you aren't going to be dumb enough to stand in the Jeebus Beam, you aren't going to take more damage, regardless of whether you are using Tormentor's insignias or not.